Ahead of the Curve: Strategic Foresight with Eric Schurr

Episode 1

As a certified practitioner in strategic foresight, Eric unravels how organizations can solve market opportunity challenges using provocative questions to help anticipate and better prepare for change.

By re-imagining opportunities for our organizations, strategic foresight can give us the tools to become future-looking. If adopted, the language of foresight begins to infiltrate the language of projects and everyday work.

A headshot of Eric Shurr.

Featured Guest: Eric Schurr

Eric Schurr is responsible for driving innovation and growth in the banks’ national lending and digital payments services. Eric’s background includes underwriting, portfolio management and product development at two of the country’s largest financial institutions, Capital One and U.S. Bank.

Eric is a certified practitioner in the art of strategic foresight –a detailed and systematic analysis of driving forces and trends of change before the development of strategies or plans – and applying it to the future of consumption.

Episode Transcript

0:02 Hello and welcome to Social Currency Powered by Sunrise Banks, a podcast about the most innovative change makers in finance, technology and ESG and how they, our guests, are dismantling barriers and reshaping their industries and maybe even ours too.

0:16 I’m Tyler Sydel and I’m Eric Schurr.

0:19 Here we speak to those driving positive change through social entrepreneurship from cutting edge technology to creative grassroots efforts.

0:27 Each episode seeks to reveal the stories behind the revolution that is propelling us toward a world of financial inclusivity.

0:36 Good morning, good morning, good morning folks.

0:38 And welcome to the Social Currency podcast powered by Sunrise Banks.

0:42 I’m your host Tyler Sydel and I’m excited to bring you the first episode of Social Currency.

0:47 Our first guest is my coworker co-host, friend, pal, confidant and subject matter expert in all things Strategic

0:55 Foresight, Mr. Eric Schurr – and I can’t wait to dive on in.

0:58 But as I may be mentioned, we kind of precluded a little bit of his background.

1:02 Let’s walk through a little bit of his bio right now.

1:05 He is the Chief strategy Officer here at Sunrise Banks.

1:08 So he has certainly a lot of great depth and stories that he can share but some great insights as well.

1:14 He’s a certified foresight practitioner and applied futurist, which means he’s adept at trend spotting, horizon scanning and pattern making.

1:23 If you’re not sure what those are, that’s all right.

1:24 We’re gonna dive into those here briefly, Eric, we’re getting our social currency rear and gear for lack of a better turn of phrase.

1:30 Thanks for joining me on our first inaugural episode, Tyler.

1:34 This is so exciting.

1:36 I’m thrilled to join you this morning and I just, I, I can’t wait to kick this off.

1:41 We have talked you and I in the past about meeting people that have different approaches, the way they, the way they think about the future of payments, the future of financial services, the future of financial wellness, the future of ESG can’t wait to dive in.

1:57 And I’m so happy that you asked me to join you this morning.

2:00 So thank you.

2:02 Absolutely.

2:03 And of course, you know, for those that may not know Eric and I have a lot of interaction here within the four walls of sunrise banks.

2:08 And it’s exciting to take some of our closed-door conversations and maybe broaden that audience a little bit.

2:13 And we’re gonna look to do that here live and in color for lack of a better turn of phrase, Eric to kick things off.

2:18 I’m sure everybody wants to know the science, perhaps even the art behind foresight.

2:23 What is it?

2:24 And how have you become so immersed in it?

2:27 Thanks for that.

2:28 You and I have talked in the past.

2:29 I don’t know if you know how I got into this in the beginning.

2:32 It was an invitation to a conference.

2:36 I had just taken over the chief strategy officer role at a prior employer and really didn’t know what to do with the role.

2:43 And I had a business coach at the time who asked me, he said, why don’t you come join me at a conference?

2:49 It’s going on in Orlando over the weekend.

2:51 It’s a Saturday, Sunday conference, come join me.

2:54 So I went down there and it was put on by the World Future Society, which as I learned later was a, a an organization developed in the 1960s by folks like Alvin Toffler, and other science fiction writers and at the time, futurists that were thinking about the future and trying to get people of like mind together.

3:15 And I was told, hey, dive into some sessions, don’t stick around to one session very long.

3:20 Just kind of dive in, get a taste and move on.

3:23 So as I went around for the two days, listening to spiritualists and housewives and, and restaurateurs and they’re talking about their industries and they’re talking about the trends.

3:33 What was the light bulb moment for me was there are things that transcend industries.

3:41 There are what they call trends that truly move society forward and that’s what got me hooked.

3:46 That was 10 years ago.

3:48 I stepped back, talked to my business coach about a week later when she asked me, she said, hey, what do you think of the conference?

3:55 I said it was the most stimulating conference I’d ever been to.

3:57 She said, that’s great.

3:58 you’re presenting there next year.

4:00 So so part of my, so part of my work over the course of the year was to, was to put together a paper and, and submit it and I was accepted and presented on the Future of Personal Financial Management at the 2014 World Feature Society Conference.

4:16 It was interesting after the conference, I got picked up by the the Government Accountability Office.

4:21 And the GAO invited me out there to  give the presentation there as well.

4:25 The exercise gave me the ideas that fuel my thinking today and gave me the tools to actually practice that I hope to instill in others that is you, you know, Eric, we didn’t ever have the time to unpack some of that background.

4:39 But I appreciate you shining a light on that.

4:41 And one thing that really resonated with me that you were talking about is as you were attending these varying classes, you started to notice a trend between what feel like tangential, if not disparate topics altogether.

4:52 In terms of what you were sitting in on when you’re looking at the future of space and you’re, and I imagine that’s what you would call scanning where you’re scanning the horizon and you’re finding some of those common denominators.

5:03 Is that really the purpose?

5:05 And is that start, is that what starts to really inform your thinking as to where this is going?

5:08 And could you color that in a little bit for the audience?

5:10 It’s very intriguing.

5:11 Yeah, you know, there’s the art of foresight really has a number of benefits.

5:17 Because as we’re, you know, when you think about the past, the past is everything we know the present is what we’re experiencing today and what’s being revealed to us collectively and the future is that which is unknown and that whole sense of unknown brings a lot of fear.

5:34 It brings, of course, it because it’s unknown, it brings uncertainty.

5:38 It brings trepidation and to us as humans.

5:41 And so what foresight tries to do is foresight actually has a number of tools that allow us to dive into various aspects.

5:49 One might be from an individual perspective, we, we gather so much information we’re bombarded, not only with social information, but just with environmental information and we filter most of that out on a day-to-day basis.

6:03 When you think about the actions we take most of our actions are our routines.

6:09 We have developed routines, and we make very few true decisions on a day-to-day basis.

6:15 Think about from the time you woke up this morning to the time that we’re sitting here today, how many real decisions did you make other than maybe what clothes you’re gonna put on today?

6:24 So, a lot of this is routine.

6:26 And so what we do is we, we, we talk about foresight first about unpacking at least be creating awareness and unpacking biases and assumptions.

6:35 And we try to do that in light of an issue that we’re facing or a problem we’re trying to solve.

6:42 Secondly, then we operate in systems that are so deeply embedded within our psyche that sometimes we’re, we’re, we don’t even realize we’re operating within them.

6:57 It’s the old joke.

6:58 Two guppies are swimming along in a pond.

7:00 And a big old fish comes by and says, morning boys, how’s the water?

7:03 And as the two fish swim away, one turns the other says, what’s water?

7:08 You know, when, when we think about our, for example, our economic system that is driven by by GDP, that is the, the measure of economic activity.

7:17 And economists will tell us that GDP has to grow up into the right forever and never and really, really bad things will happen if that’s not, if that doesn’t continue.

7:26 As a matter of fact, they’re so bad, we won’t even describe them too well.

7:30 If you’re dealing with issues, you may sometimes have to think about the system you’re in.

7:35 And so to do that, foresight helps unpack some of those, some of those perceptions, some of those myths and metaphors that we operate under to at least create awareness and potentially think about how we challenge them.

7:50 And then you brought up this notion of scamming.

7:52 So,  that’s observing the environment around us.

7:56 And we’re looking for, we’re looking for evidence that things are occurring.

8:01 So those are trends we’re looking for.

8:04 More importantly, values, people’s values that drive the acceptance of some of these other things that are coming out there.

8:12 Think technology, right?

8:13 A lot of fists will talk about, well, the future is all about technology.

8:19 I gotta be honest, I differ there.

8:20 The future is all about humans.

8:22 It’s all about people.

8:24 Now we can choose to adopt technology or not and we choose to adopt technology for certain things, you know, chat GP T for example, a lot of curiosity around it, but where is a commercial adaptation?

8:37 So I went out, I was curious, I’m thinking about how I’m gonna use it.

8:42 I haven’t adopted it, but maybe one day I will and maybe I’m adopting it in certain tools that are being embedded into some of the software I’m using and I don’t even know it.

8:52 And so it’s through that discovery process I’ll adopt that technology.

8:56 So that’s the third way that foresight is, is used.

8:59 And then once you scan and we have this qualitative data, how do we make sense out of it?

9:05 And that’s probably one of the key impacts of foresight as organizations are looking at the environment they’re operating in.

9:13 There’s this looming question, how do I make sense of all of this that is coming toward me and the challenges that I don’t even know about yet that might impact my business.

9:22 Foresight allows us to begin to make sense around those by producing implications and impacts on some of the observations that we’ve made about the world around us.

9:35 Now, you take, you can put that into scenarios and create a background and stories about what a future might look like.

9:42 And then you can also as an organization start to define your preferred future.

9:47 And then finally, you can actually put that into action and bump it up against the strategic plan.

9:51 And that’s where you see a lot of foresight, work being done is when they marry the strategic planning process with foresight.

9:57 So basically, you can build a plan that is resilient and you have scenarios out there that as you observe what is going on around you, you can bump those up against your scenarios that you’ve developed and then go look back at your strategic plan and say, well, if a happens.

10:12 That’s a signpost.

10:13 This means that this is probably bigger than we first realized.

10:16 What is our plan?

10:17 Say if we indeed saw an uptake in this type of adoption, for example, Eric, I appreciate that.

10:25 And one thing that I was looking to draw a distinction on and you captured it just organically in your dialogue was really there’s an intersection or perhaps how a strategic plan works with really a foresight, product artifact and how I’m understanding it is that your strategic plan is kind of stand-alone and that’s kind of what you’re looking to do.

10:48 Your foresight analysis.

10:50 Your scanning is gonna make a determination or that artifact that comes out of that Foresight process is gonna make is gonna inform a strategic plan that says, hey, this is what we’re seeing on the horizon.

11:00 It looks like perhaps, maybe there’s tougher times, maybe it’s open skies.

11:05 And this is how we’re gonna reflect or how we’re going to amend our strategic plan.

11:09 Is that accurate?

11:11 And could you give perhaps some examples for our user base as to what that would look like in terms of amendments pivoting or otherwise?

11:16 Yeah.

11:16 No, that thanks for that.

11:18 That’s, that’s absolutely true.

11:19 The way I think about it is putting a cartoon character such as Mickey Mouse, drawing the cartoon character in a blank piece of paper.

11:25 Well, the cartoon character is us that we are we are going to move forward and yet we don’t really know what we’re going to do with that cartoon character until we paint.

11:34 The background is Mickey sitting on the river, is Mickey sitting in space where is Mickey?

11:40 And what are the situations around him?

11:42 So that foresight tends to paint in the background.

11:45 And then our actions start to become a little clearer and we start to at least eliminate the, the chaff and start harvesting some of the wheat.

11:56 Let me give you an example of a situation that I think we’re running into.

11:59 For, for me, I think the impacts of of the environment, the ability for organizations to adapt control and change in reaction to environmental impacts is the biggest business opportunity in the next 70 years.

12:19 And the reason I say that is because there is so much that needs to happen and it is so localized.

12:27 So let me give you an example.

12:28 There are coastal areas on the East Coast, particularly that are sinking in the ocean.

12:32 So the New York Times tells us in an article that this, they, they say a science based and we’ve had municipalities along the east coast conduct studies.

12:40 City of Boston conducted a study in 2030 called Boston 2030.

12:45 And one of the headlines is by 2070 they think $80 billion of property value is going to be at risk for coastal flooding.

12:54 Consistently.

12:55 Now, their strategy is to take and defend that.

12:58 So they’re actually going, they’re thinking about building sea walls.

13:01 So when you think about that type of in infrastructure, build, what opportunities does that present to us as an organization down the coast?

13:10 In Norfolk, Virginia Norfolk wrote a plan called Vision 2100 where they actually looked at, they have sunny days flooding today and when they took a look at their map and released it in 2015, they had four broad areas of impact.

13:25 They’ve since updated it and the most severely impacted areas, they’re actually thinking about seeing to the ocean.

13:32 Now, that’s really interesting because that has very different, for example, infrastructure questions.

13:37 So how do you seal off the water supply and the electric supply and the gas supply from the ocean so that it doesn’t encroach and affect those properties that are still, that are still above ground.

13:51 You know, and, and then there’s the whole human impact of that.

13:53 So, does a FEMA check still cut it?

13:56 Should we be talking to our to our policymakers?

14:00 And, and thinking through how do we relocate folks?

14:03 This whole notion of immigration from a human perspective is gonna be massive.

14:08 And then you have cities on the northern climbs such as Buffalo, New York and Duluth Minnesota who are declaring themselves climate havens.

14:15 So they’re looking at climate change, but they’re looking at it strictly as an opportunity.

14:19 How do we build more housing?

14:21 How do we reimagine living?

14:22 How do we accept people into this area that are coming here?

14:26 And how do we preserve the quality of life that we want to have for ourselves?

14:31 So we see, we, you know, we see that, we see we see new construction with embedded carbon being a big factor now.

14:39 So just building materials themselves take up a lot, you know, they use a lot of carbon just to create two by fours and, and concrete.

14:47 There’s a whole movement around that as well.

14:50 And, and that’s gonna become increasingly important because in about 20 years embedded carbon, the carbon that’s used to create materials is going to account for 50% of the lifetime carbon footprint of an existing structure.

15:03 So when, so if, if I’m a bank and I laid this out to you and we gather some information now we can sit down and we start talking about some of the implications.

15:12 What’s the implication and, and don’t forget, you know, heat and wildfire as well.

15:16 So, on the west coast, you’ve got you and you’ve got Phoenix in, in the Sun Valley, you know, what are they going to do?

15:22 And they have a whole host of problems.

15:24 So it’s local, but at the same time, there’s such opportunity out here.

15:29 So if we’re sitting here as an organization in the upper midwest, we have to ask ourselves, what are the opportunities that we want to take to help nudge some of these things along through the use of finance?

15:41 Again, how do we make finance of force for good Eric?

15:44 When you say that the future is unknown and paraphrasing here, perhaps worrisome and even Tres.

15:52 And I think that you and I both are firm believers that where some see trepidation, social entrepreneurships, they see opportunity.

15:58 And really what you’re describing here is you’re starting to paint that picture 1 to 3 years into the future, perhaps even more into the future, perhaps than that.

16:06 And in terms of some of these manifesting in reality, it gives the organizations those that are looking to position opportunity.

16:14 It gives you a long enough runway to intersect that trend to capture and provide our position some form of value.

16:20 And that is what I perceive in our conversation to be the highest and best use of foresight just from an entrepreneurship or a going business consideration.

16:28 What are your thoughts around that?

16:29 And is that truly the highest and best use of foresight in your mind?

16:33 Well, it it it it can be the, you know, the the six benefits I laid out earlier can be utilized to solve either market opportunity problems or organizational design problems into the future, how we’re going to organize our work in, in into the future and, and, and reimagine our organization and service of that in con.

16:55 So, we can separate those and use those for specific purposes.

17:00 But if taken together those six interlocking pieces, if adopted by an organization truly makes an organization future looking

17:08 The, the language of foresight begins to infiltrate the language of projects and the language of everyday work.

17:16 And it’s as much a mindset as it is the use of the tools.

17:22 Now, some people, some people say they live to work to keep the trains running on time to keep the operation efficient.

17:34 And for some people, foresight is a foreign language.

17:39 It’s not for everyone.

17:41 But if organizations can take and adapt some of the tools of foresight to their particular need and expand as needed, they will find benefits that go beyond the initial one.

17:55 So in this case, market opportunity, inevitably they will turn to organizational design.

18:00 You know, we’ve talked about the three horizons model which is a tool that’s being that that that’s used out there.

18:06 And we talk about Horizon one being that which is currently occurring today.

18:10 Horizon two in the intermediate and horizon three long term.

18:14 But you can also turn that tool around and use it and say from a point in time today, there’s evidence of all three horizons out there.

18:21 Horizon one is the way business is being done today.

18:23 Our business as usual processes.

18:25 Horizon two are the are the adoptions of new technologies, for example, into business processes.

18:32 So artificial intelligence in the customer service, for example, in the banking background, Horizon three is subtle.

18:40 She’s a subtle lady.

18:41 She’s, she’s in the background and those are the values that we see people considering and adapting today.

18:49 And you see it in, in areas that aren’t necessarily directly associated with the way people consume and think about financial services today.

18:58 It might be in the way that people are desiring to live out their passions, consistent with their values.

19:05 And so you see evidence of all three.

19:07 So you can take these, these tools and use them for multiple purposes or turn them on their sides and ask some really interesting questions.

19:14 And that’s really the purpose of foresight, purpose of foresight is to, is to ask the provocative question and have us think about that seriously.

19:22 And if we think about them in new and different ways, what are the opportunities, what are the possibilities out there?

19:29 You know, when you say values and belief systems and how that starts to really frame the future and really motivate people that is profound and that is a takeaway that I captured from that dialogue there area that we were having is that that is as you stated early on, it’s not technology that’s moving things forward, it’s the people, it’s the social aspect.

19:49 And I think that gets reinforced in that comment.

19:52 What are some of the most interesting perhaps revelations that you found in the foresight process or perhaps to frame that differently.

19:58 What does Eric Schurr’s crystal ball hold for financial technology in the coming years?

20:03 Oh man.

20:03 I don’t forecast.

20:05 My crystal ball is as cloudy as yours gotta be out of.

20:10 you know, you know, we, we, I, I would say we will tend to see, you know, the, the great question you can ask any business leader in any industry or you can ask him two questions.

20:19 You know, the answer number one is your industry being disrupted?

20:21 Absolutely.

20:22 Absolutely.

20:23 Is that industry being disruption, being disrupted from inside or outside your industry?

20:27 It’s always from outside forces.

20:28 It’s the things we didn’t know that kind of caught us off guard.

20:32 So I would say for us, we continue to see finance being embedded in, in experiences.

20:41 And this is a continuation of a trend we saw for a long time when people, when financial institutions would build new branches and they put out these extravagant, you know, architecture are great.

20:52 They’re wonderful to walk into and they’re serving coffee and donuts and that’s wonderful.

20:57 But folks, a branch visit isn’t a destination.

21:01 It’s an errand.

21:02 It’s something to check off the list.

21:04 The same thing with payments, payments.

21:06 People don’t desire to reach in their reach in a wallet or pocketbook and pull out a card and swipe it or dip it or tap it and wait for the receipt to come out.

21:13 They’d rather not do that.

21:15 So I think we’re gonna continue to see that.

21:18 The question is going to be though.

21:20 For I, I believe is back to my comment around people acting consistent with their values.

21:26 Technology has gotten to a place now where I think cons and, and consumer attitudes, I think have gotten there.

21:32 It’s beyond convenience.

21:34 It’s being whole, it’s acting con it’s feeling good about the actions I’m taking with the money I’m earning and I think that’s going to be that’s, that’s going to play a large role in, in financial services in the future.

21:51 I agree.

21:51 I think certainly our generation, subsequent generations, they very much are of the belief system of voting with your dollar.

21:56 putting your money perhaps where your belief systems are for lack of a better turn of phrase.

22:01 One thing that you said that I was really going to stick with me is gonna be the swipe dip and tap it, Eric.

22:05 So we might have to, we might have to turn that into a little bit of a remix.

22:09 But I do think that that’s certainly fun and something that we can capture in some of marketing.

22:12 What are some of the actions that you’re taking just in your personal life if we want to maybe shift it a little bit from the work setting to the personal setting.

22:21 What are some actions that you take in your personal life?

22:22 Knowing that you sit on kind of foresight, academia, knowing that you have this adaptability to pattern scan, to see things in the future.

22:30 How does that affect your personal life and you look to do and how you serve your local community?

22:35 Yeah, thanks for that.

22:36 We talked about this before.

22:38 I’m a firm believer.

22:40 First off, that people are, are, are at the center of the future.

22:43 It is not about technology; it is not about nature.

22:47 Although our actions are being driven by nature, it is about humans because we have the, we have the ability to choose that which we use, and we have a responsibility to steward the resources we have.

23:01 There is a gentleman by the name of Herman Daly who was an IMF international Monetary Fund economist in the eighties and nineties.

23:08 And he, he, he came up with this concept of consumption economics and he talked about about this idea of earth.

23:14 You know, we sit on earth and it’s only so big.

23:16 And as an economy, we take resources, we take energy and resources off the earth and then we do things with it, we manufacture and then whatever is wasted or we don’t use anymore, gets dumped back on the rock on earth.

23:28 And that has given rise to most recently donut economics, that whole concept and So it keeps me the, the, the notion of foresight helps keep me grounded in the fact that this is about people.

23:40 This is not about technology.

23:41 The second thing is, it really helps me stay flexible in my mindset.

23:48 I’m widely optimistic about the future.

23:50 So you need to know that about me.

23:51 I’m not a dystopian guy.

23:53 We can go there, but I don’t stay there very long.

23:55 But I believe people have agency in the future because it’s all about people, people have agency, meaning that we create our future every day by the actions we take.

24:05 I’m a firm believer in that.

24:07 And so, and because the future is every moment from now until the time we put in the earth, what are we gonna do with it?

24:14 And how do we think about it and it to that end, then it really feeds my curiosity as a lifelong learner.

24:20 I love reading history.

24:22 I love reading biology.

24:23 I love reading foreign affairs.

24:26 I, I love getting a wide perspective because I find that things are connected and it gives me greater understanding of potentially the issue I’m looking at.

24:36 And then finally, it’s this notion of being a little bit humble about my thinking.

24:39 Alvin Toffler.

24:39 I mentioned him earlier.

24:41 He came up in the 60s with this notion of learn unlearn and relearn.

24:45 So while I’m learning all the time, I have to have the, the, the temperament to be able to understand the other side or understand alternative points of view.

24:55 And when I think they make sense to unlearn what I’ve, what I’ve held to be true and then take a move into a new space so that learn unlearn, relearn really helps me fuel my sense of self awareness.

25:09 I’d say that’s, you know, that that’s it.

25:11 And then, and then finally we spend so much time, you and I do in the business, we’re like 50 ft above the ground and we, and sometimes we’re in the weeds and a lot of times we like to pull out because it’s our job, but sometimes we gotta get out there at 50,000 ft.

25:28 The view up there is just very different and that’s what foresight does.

25:32 I don’t spend a lot of time up there.

25:35 But more the, the time I spent up there is really valuable because I can come back down to 10,000 or 5000 ft and attack an issue or a situation with maybe a new mental model or a new frame or a new frame or a new mindset or a new piece of information that will inform a clarity around an issue that we just didn’t have before.

25:56 I think when you’re able to, as you were mentioning, step up, take yourself to a higher vantage point, look at the issue from perhaps a different optic.

26:04 It kind of takes some of the fear and uncertainty out of it and then you’re able to come back down, put yourself in kind of that tactical transactional space and then take the next steps that you need to in an effort to keep going.

26:13 I kind of liken it to the parallel of if you’re digging a ditch, you don’t necessarily know where you’re going unless you pick your head up, take a look every once in a while and then get back down and start digging.

26:22 So Eric phenomenal dialogue, great conversation.

26:25 I want to provide you with the opportunity in case we haven’t just to leave the audience with something that we have not expressly covered, whether by way of questions or conversationally, is there anything that you’d like to leave the audience within terms of thoughts?

26:38 And I’ll give you the floor if there’s one thing I can leave folks with is the more I think about the challenges that are out there today that we’re facing, they’re different than challenges we faced in the past because we as humans have now have the power to alter our environment.

26:58 And so what we do collectively matters, and it really hadn’t mattered up until very recently.

27:07 And that creates an issue that for the first time in our life is a long-term issue, meaning that it will span beyond our lifetimes.

27:18 So as we’re looking for solutions to what we consider climate change today and how to lower the temperature first off, we have to get it.

27:28 We have to get comfortable with the fact that we’re not going to see the reason we’re not gonna see the end game.

27:33 We just aren’t, these, these issues are well beyond us and that leaves us with a responsibility.

27:39 You know, the good book says we’re supposed to be nice to everyone we meet and be caring and be useful to them and sometimes that’s really hard.

27:47 The problems we’re facing today are, are ask, they’re, they’re asking us to be considerate of generations who will never know us as people, as individuals and to be considerate of them and to value their life as well.

28:02 That’s hard, that’s hard for humans to do.

28:06 But that’s where foresight can help stretch our minds to begin to think about the possibility and create that altruistic action of things that actions that we will take today, that we will never the beneficiary of which will never be able to greet us and say thank you for that.

28:26 That’s, that to me is really powerful and that is something that that, that, that I work on every day.

28:34 I’ll stop there.

28:35 There’s nothing for me to improve upon there.

28:37 I appreciate that philosophy and that viewpoint and, and it resonates very deeply with me.

28:42 Folks, you’ve heard it here from Eric S himself, learn unlearn and relearn almost parallels progression, not perfection.

28:49 And we really support that philosophy, what we do matters, you matter.

28:53 And as Eric pointed out as we’re moving forward, a lot of these problems opportunities that we’re gonna encounter are gonna take a community to solve.

29:01 and the community to support Eric.

29:04 Thanks for your time today.

29:06 I’m excited for the future of social currency.

29:08 I’m excited for our continued partnership and working together.

29:11 And I want to thank our listeners for joining our first inaugural social currency podcast powered by Sunrise Banks.

29:19 Thanks for listening to the social Currency podcast by Sunrise Banks.