Featured Guest: Kevin Edwards

Kevin Edwards is the Vice President of Growth and host of the Real Leaders Podcast, a Top 100 US Business News Podcast covering today’s impact CEOs and thought leaders.

Episode Transcript

0:00 – [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:01 – Kevin Edwards
For these social entrepreneurs, I think what makes them different is transformation. And so, are you providing something that wasn’t there already, which is what you were doing, right? And so that to us is impact. And you can transform the lives of individuals.

00:20 – Becca Hoeft
Welcome to the NextGen Banker Podcast, where we explore what’s next in banking and talk with innovators responsible for creating positive change in the financial sector. I’m Becca Hoeft, chief brand officer at Sunrise Banks, and I am joined today with my colleague Bryan Toft, chief revenue officer at Sunrise Banks.

00:41 – Bryan Toft
Yeah, thanks, Becca. I have been looking forward to this episode. Because I’m fascinated by the study of leadership. And today’s guest has interviewed hundreds of leaders, especially purpose-driven leaders. So, we’re speaking with Kevin Edwards today, of Real Leaders, and he hosts a podcast called Real Leaders Podcast. And it’s a top 100 podcast for both US and Canada Business News. So really looking forward to learning more about Kevin’s perspective on purpose-driven leadership.

1:07 – Becca Hoeft
Awesome. OK. Before we jump in, though, I want to remind everyone to stick around to hear our musical feature at the end of the episode. Each NextGen Banker episode showcases one new musical artist from somewhere around the world, representing a wide range of genres. So be sure to check it out.

1:26 – Bryan Toft
I want to give some background on Kevin before he joins us here. So, Kevin is the vice president of growth at real leaders and as I mentioned, the host of the Real Leaders Podcast. Check it out. It’s awesome. Since 2015, he’s conducted more than 500 interviews of top leaders and talked with many of them about a subject close to our heart, which is doing good.

1:45 – Bryan Toft
If you love learning about leadership and leaders from a wide variety of backgrounds, definitely check it out. The Real Leaders Kevin works for is a membership community for impact leaders with a global media platform dedicated to driving positive change. So, Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

1:58 – Kevin Edwards
Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I appreciate it. Happy to be here.

2:01 – Becca Hoeft
Awesome. Thanks so much, Kevin. I’d like to just dive right in, if you guys don’t mind. You spent your entire career talking to leaders, Kevin, across industries about their motivations and goals beyond simple profits. So, what motivates these leaders towards a bigger purpose?

2:23 – Kevin Edwards
Well, interesting. Interesting question. I think that just maybe it’s inherent. I don’t know. Maybe it’s just a climate that shifted them. But I think what they all have in common is that they all want to change the world, and they see business as a way of doing that, as a vehicle for doing that.

2:40 – Kevin Edwards
So, what motivates them? I think it’s pretty simple, right? I mean, look around. The climate’s changing. Demographics are changing. And if you’re an entrepreneur who likes solving problems, there’s plenty of those out there.

2:54 – Kevin Edwards
So how do we solve these in a scalable exponential way, I think, is what’s very interesting to a lot of these entrepreneurs, who don’t necessarily want to go in to it this looking at it through the lens of a nonprofit, which traditionally, aren’t as scalable, might be relying on donations or government grants or loans. How do you actually solve these problems to fill the need of a lot of consumers and people out there and businesses out there alike?

3:23 – Kevin Edwards
So, I think that that’s what drives a lot of these entrepreneurs. They want to solve the world’s problems and make money while doing it. And there’s nothing wrong with that, right. So that’s what I think drives these individuals.

3:35 – Kevin Edwards
And it’s when you got a triple bottom line, people playing profit, they all are in alignment. That’s something special, and people want to work for those companies. So, what a fun life that would be, right?

3:46 – Becca Hoeft
Seriously. It reminds me, and it’s a perfect segue into my next question. Because it reminds me of when in my 20s, I had started this social enterprise with a couple neighbors of mine in Chicago. And Walter was from Nairobi. And he was talking to myself around the community that he grew up with in Kenya and the struggles that they had.

4:15 – Becca Hoeft
And so, we built this business called [? Kayando ?] Originals back in the early 2000s, ’90s. And what we found really fast– and it was great, because what we were doing is, we were importing leather goods from single moms. And then literally, we would give most of the money back except to cover our costs.

4:38 – Becca Hoeft
And so, what we found, though, is that, number one, I learned a bunch about importing and exporting, more than any person should know. But it was critical. And then it only lasted about 18 months. We crashed and burned financially. We just could not build that sustainable model. So my question to you, and based on all of these leaders that you’ve talked to on Real Leaders Podcast, if you know of an entrepreneur or an individual who’s looking to build a socially-driven business, what do you think would be the first step or first piece of advice that you would give them?

5:17 – Kevin Edwards
Well, I think you’ve got to start with an intention, which sounds like what you started with, right? You got to start with intention, figure out what your core values are. What’s the vision? What’s the mission? What’s the purpose?

5:27 – Kevin Edwards
How is that going to align with your career and making money. Right? And then next comes the model. What’s the model that you want to have? Are you selling B2B? Are you selling B2C? Learn about expenses and revenues, right?

5:43 – Kevin Edwards
And then the next thing– through this process, which sounds like this was a negative process for you. This was more of a learning process for you, Becca. And that’s really coming to learn about profitability.

5:56 – Kevin Edwards
How can you become profitable? I mean, we talk about– Bryan, over here, is talking about revenue all the time. But what is EBITDA at the end of the day? How can you sustain profitability?

6:08 – Kevin Edwards
And then fourthly, accountability, how can you be accountable for everything that happens in the company? When you’re an entrepreneur, you’ve got to know everything. And so how are you accountable for yourself? How do you create a culture of accountability? And how do you make sure that you’re accounting for those line items that are really important?

6:26 – Kevin Edwards
And then fifth, I’d say customers. You’ve got to be a customer-centric company in today’s day and age. Customers are always changing. The tailwinds are always changing. Motives, incentives, the economy, is going up and down. People are changing based– they’re going to be spending on based on what’s happening out in the world.

6:44 – Kevin Edwards
And then lastly, for these social entrepreneurs, I think what makes them different is transformation. And so, are you providing something that wasn’t there already, which is what you were doing, right? And so that, to us, is impact, when you can transform the lives of individuals. So, intention, model, profitability, accountability, customers, and transformation, that’s what we call impact at Real Leaders. And that’s what I think are the core traits of a lot of the leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to interview over the past couple of years.

7:13 – Becca Hoeft
That almost sounds like a book that could be written.

7:16
[LAUGHTER]

7:17 – Kevin Edwards
Well, we actually started a course. It hasn’t launched yet, but I’d taken the best parts of a lot of these interviews and packaged them into a course. So, if anyone listening to this, or you guys want to take it, it’s free online right now. So, haven’t launched it yet, but may be, I don’t know, if you’re interested in it, go online at realleaders.co. Or just email me at Kevin@real-leaders.com, Would love any individual to take it for free and let me know what they think.

7:43 – Becca Hoeft
Wow, it sounds like I need to check that out.

7:47 – Kevin Edwards
I think you do, Becca.

7:48 – Bryan Toft
That does sound great. Kevin@real-leaders.com, is that what it was?

7:53 – Kevin Edwards
OK, that’s it, Bryan. Yeah, thank you.

7:55 – Bryan Toft
OK, that’s great. So, you mentioned that your podcast is all about leadership. And you talk to a ton of different leaders, amazing leaders, from all over. And I was wondering. I wanted to ask you; how would you define leadership? And the other part of that question is, as you talk to all these leaders, they all have different things to say about leadership and how they lead. What are some of the lessons that stick out to you after all the podcasts you’ve done?

8:20 – Kevin Edwards
I’d say my definition– I always ask people on the show, Bryan, if you listen to it, is what is your definition of a real leader? And so, what I’ve learned is there’s no one definition–

8:29 – Kevin Edwards
Everyone.

8:29 – Kevin Edwards
–around leadership, which I think says a lot. I think it says a lot about people. You got to be authentic, right? So, I think that’s what real leaders embodies, is that authenticity. That’s what a real leader is to us.

8:40 – Kevin Edwards
But for me personally, my definition is– it’s pretty relaxed. A leader is somebody who can connect with a bunch of different people in a bunch of different ways. And if enough people are connected, then inherently, you have a movement. And when you have a movement, a real leader never sacrifices their core values, which is what made them authentic in the first place.

9:04 – Kevin Edwards
So, think about it, you know, never sacrificing your core values for the sake of just profitability, for a new deal, for quantity over quality. Right? And so, I think that’s what differentiates a real leader, versus simply a leader.

9:21 – Becca Hoeft
And I think you used the word movement, which I really– as chief brand officer at Sunrise, that’s really important to me. That, to me, is a really interesting concept around being a movement instead of just a logo.

9:37 – Kevin Edwards
Absolutely. Bryan?

9:38 – Bryan Toft
Yeah, and almost what you said is almost a paradox. So, you said, you have to connect with people, and you have to hold true to your core values. And that’s a really difficult thing to do.

9:49 – Bryan Toft
Because in order to connect with people, you have to change. You have to adapt. And in order to lead, you have to change, and you have to adapt. And yet, you have to have this founding sense of core values and core principles that guide you through that adaptability and through that change. That’s not an easy thing to do.

10:06 – Kevin Edwards
No, absolutely not. I think it’s– what’s the movie? Spiderman, with Peter Parker, right? It’s like, with great power comes great responsibility. If you’re ever in a situation, you have to act in the best interest of the people that have put their faith in you, that you represent. So easier said than done, I’m sure we’ve all been there.

10:25 – Kevin Edwards
I’ve been there, where you want to make decisions that are best for your interest, maybe for your own pockets. And that’s what got us in this problem in the first place, shortsightedness. So, at Real Leaders, our vision is where leaders can leave a world far better than they found it.

10:45 – Becca Hoeft
And I think that, as a B corp, as well, at Sunrise Banks, there’s a slogan, Using Business as a Force for Good. Which brings me to your actual Real Leaders list, that you put out every year. And we’ve been very grateful and honored to be on that list for the past four years, which we’re– again, we’re very excited to be on there.

11:09 – Becca Hoeft
But one of the things that I know is a consumer is I use that list to determine, who do I want to do business with? Where are the companies that I can trust? And so, I would love to learn just a little bit about how your team puts together that list and why it’s important to do this, specifically in the financial sector.

11:31 – Kevin Edwards
Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great question. Yeah, I’d love to know what your thoughts are on that as well. I want to know how it’s helped Sunrise Banks over the past four years. And again, we always appreciate any application that we receive, and we love seeing some banks on the awards list every single year.

11:50 – Kevin Edwards
I would say– I mean, it started with how we define success, right? And so, you have your success magazines. You have your Forbes magazines and your Fortune 500. And they all have these lists, right?

12:06 – Kevin Edwards
And primarily, it’s what I was talking about earlier, is they reward success on profitability and revenue alone, which is all good, all good. Companies need to be profitable, and they need to have revenue, two key important things.

12:19 – Kevin Edwards
But where we wanted to make a change is, we wanted to represent and empower the impact companies that are in business to be a force for good. And we see that as success. And we see that as the next gen of businesses.

12:36 – Kevin Edwards
And so, we wanted to, as a part of our mission to unite farsighted leaders to transform a shortsighted world, to achieve a world where leaders leave things far better than they found it, we wanted to create a community. And one way to do that was to rank and reward companies for their impact.

12:55 – Kevin Edwards
And so, we started– and I have to give the nod to Big Path Capital, who brought us the idea. And we integrated this formula, which is called a Force for Good Formula. So, we were working with B Labs at the time. We were working on a Big Path Capital.

13:10 – Kevin Edwards
And the idea behind this formula is we wanted to rank companies on their five-year growth, so their growth rate, times their gross annual revenue of the previous year multiplied by their certified B Impact Assessment score. And so, the first year, we were only taking B corps to recognize this growing movement and to piggyback on that movement. And then we opened it up for more companies to get inside and see that, hey, look, maybe if I took the B Impact Assessment, I’d score higher next year, right?

13:47 – Kevin Edwards
And so that’s what we’ve done over the past four years, now coming on the fifth year, which, by the way, just opened up last week. So, if you want to apply, go online to realleaders.com. But that’s really why we do it.

13:59 – Kevin Edwards
And so, when you come on, one, we want to build your credibility. So, we give away the license of the logo for free. So, people can put on their website. They can put it on their email signature. They can put it on their LinkedIn. They can be a part of the social media blitz campaign.

14:15 – Kevin Edwards
And then we want them to integrate it into their sales strategy, right? So, they can find other companies on that list. They can say, hey, I was ranked on the top 200 impact companies. And so, it’s just another touchpoint for a lot of these companies to sell better, to, I guess, improve their credibility, to build much stronger relationships and gain that trust immediately.

14:38 – Kevin Edwards
And then the last one for the awards is, well, we want the impact investing community. We want Sunrise Banks. We want the investors out there to find these companies that they can’t find themselves or have the time to do and make sure that they’re a credible organization. Right? If they’re on the top 200 impact list, they’re high growth, they’re high impact. And most of the time, their CEOs are high performing.

15:04 – Kevin Edwards
So that’s why we do it. So those three things are what I think has made the award so successful over the past four years. And coming on the fifth year, we’re hoping to get it to 300. So, a lot of things are going on. So, I appreciate the question.

15:17 – Becca Hoeft
The connection that I see with what you just talked about, Kevin, to the concept that we talk about here at Sunrise is mission times margin. So, to multiply your mission, you grow your margin. To multiply your mission, you grow– it’s back and forth, right? It’s so interconnected and interdependent of each other.

15:40 – Becca Hoeft
And so, when I look at– or when I listen to this formula, five-year growth, gross annual revenue, and the assessment score by B Impact, it makes complete sense to me. And I have to say, thanks for doing this. Because again, as a consumer, it’s important to me to know where I spend my money.

16:02 – Kevin Edwards
Absolutely. It’s helpful for me. It’s helpful for me to know what companies are out there. And we do a myriad of lists, actually. That’s not the only one.

16:10 – Kevin Edwards
We had the Eco Innovation Awards, that just came out, ranking the top 50 eco innovative projects that are happening last year, so new projects that companies are taking on– pretty cool list. And then last, in this– well, I guess Q4 will have, in last Q4 we had is the Top 50 Impact Investing list. And so, if you’re an entrepreneur that’s going out there trying to raise capital, you want to align yourself, you’re a social enterprise, great list for that as well.

16:36 – Bryan Toft
I love that you’ve taken the Forbes idea, this list idea, and added another dimension, so people can see that achievement from a profitability standpoint, and then that impact, and how that works together. And as Becca mentioned, we’ve found it works together very well. You don’t sacrifice one for the other. It actually multiplies on itself.

16:55 – Bryan Toft
And I think a lot of companies are finding that. And part of the reason, I think, is because of what you said and what Becca said, which is trust, customer trust. And all these things that you’re doing around the Real Leaders list, the certified B Corporation, those are all accountability, as you said, in that impact score, that A, that accountability for a company to show, that we’re not just saying these things as Sunrise or Real Leaders, these other companies that are B corporations.

17:21 – Bryan Toft
We have to prove that we’re doing them. And we have to prove it in a lot of different ways, from environmental, to social, whatever it might be. And that’s a really, really difficult thing to do, but well worth it. And as a consumer, hopefully, you can see that the impact is there, and it’s real.

17:39 – Bryan Toft
I was going to ask you about, in this trust line of questioning. You know, Edelman, which is a large PR agency, does study consumers’ trust. And one recurring theme that is in their survey over the years is that, as a company, doing good is no longer a choice. It’s a requirement. Consumers are demanding that company does good and that social impact is a positive one.

18:05 – Kevin Edwards
How are you seeing this play out? In what areas are business leaders talking about this? What are they saying when they talk about doing good business as a force for good?

18:18 – Kevin Edwards
When you were doing your interviews, and you’re talking to these business leaders, how are they doing that? What are they thinking about? What can you tell us about that?

18:28 – Kevin Edwards
Well, I think any time a PR agency says the word “requirement,” a lot of business owners go, ooh, what do you mean? Because in the interviews that we’ve done, I guess one thing that stands out is it has to be authentic to your brand. Right? If you layer it on top, if you’re not really about it, it’s going to wipe out the whole community.

18:58 – Kevin Edwards
And what I mean by that is a term called greenwashing. If a company comes on, and they say, hey, we got this ESG score. We’ve bought this carbon credit project. We’ve done this, this, and that. And then years go– two years go by, and it hasn’t really infiltrated the whole culture in the community that they serve and all the stakeholders that touch the organization, it’s going to fail.

19:23 – Kevin Edwards
It’s going to not have the impact that these consumers are wanting. And that, in turn, impacts the rest of the whole and companies like yours and mine, right? And so, we want to be very careful when we’re talking about requirements, and you have to do this. Because we just want to make sure that it’s very authentic to the core.

19:47 – Kevin Edwards
And that’s something that Vincent Stanley, the director of philosophy at Patagonia, shared in an interview of mine. And that was his take. Let’s start calling it responsible business, and let’s focus on, if you want to be sustainable, just make sure it’s at the core of what you do. Because it’s more of a mindset and a mentality than it is strategy. So that’s why I’m here, Bryan. That’s what I think a lot of the people in the space are hearing.

20:16 – Kevin Edwards
But nevertheless, I think Edelman is right from our perspective, that if we had not shifted, we would not be in a position, from what we’re seeing now, with demographics changing, with the climate changing, with social media having a major influence on stock prices and employment and attractive, and all those key points that you guys talk about the NextGen Banking Podcast. So, I think, because we’re doing this, Bryan, I think we will be in a better position. And I think I would be curious to know if you guys feel the same way about that as well.

20:54 – Bryan Toft
Yeah, absolutely, it does have to be authentic. It goes back to what you said before. It’s those core values. And when a leader of an organization holds those core values around these things, around what the B Corporation piece is, what B Labs cares about, what Real Leaders cares about, it’s naturally comes together. You know, you mentioned– was the CEO of Patagonia you had on the podcast?

21:22 – Kevin Edwards
Director of philosophy, one of the first workers at Patagonia, Vincent Stanley.

21:26 – Bryan Toft
Really?

21:26 – Kevin Edwards
Yeah.

21:27 – Bryan Toft
That’s really fascinating. And I know that you had Ken Blanchard on, who was the author of One Minute Manager, which is sort of an icon. And you’ve had a lot of other interesting guests. Do you have a favorite guest that you’ve had on the podcast, an interview maybe that sticks out to you as maybe one someone could go check out as their introduction to the Real Leader’s Podcast?

21:50 – Kevin Edwards
I don’t have a favorite guest. I can’t cherry pick one. There’s just been so many. I think one that’s had a major influence on me, though, has been Matthew Weatherly-White, the co-founder of CAPROCK. And he’s since retired from the organization.

22:09 – Kevin Edwards
But we did a full video interview sit down. It was a two-hour conversation, where he flew from Idaho to meet with us, and just loves to talk about this stuff, and wants to influence others. And so, if you’re curious, you’re in banking, and you’re curious to know how this stuff works, how people in this space think, what are some tangible strategies to take away, I definitely recommend checking that podcast out. But we’ve had a lot of folks come on the show.

22:43 – Kevin Edwards
It’s sometimes it’s not business related. We had like Paul Stamets, who’s a mycologist, who’s been on a Joe Rogan podcast. And he was a very interesting interview. We’ve had R&B artist Akon on the podcast two times, where he flew like all the way from Dubai just to do an interview. And that’s a really funny story, because that was actually one of our first video in-person interviews, so you imagine how much I was sweating beforehand.

23:12 – Kevin Edwards
But all in all, it’s been a great experience. All the leaders bring something new to the show. And I personally don’t do it for ratings, for reviews. I do it because I’m curious. And I’m sure you both can attest to that, from what we were talking about before the show, why you like doing it and how you guys are talking about improving.

23:32 – Kevin Edwards
It’s just fun. It’s fun to get to build connections in this space. It’s fun to get to learn about other individuals. And I started as an intern, doing a road trip from Tucson, Arizona to Vancouver, Canada. We did 1,400 miles. We had 40 interviews, working on our own dime.

23:51 – Kevin Edwards
And it’s just because of the consistent curiosity that my partner and I had to capture the stories of those folks in the groundswell movement, social entrepreneurs, and bring those success stories alive to inspire purposeful careers– so that’s how I got into this space. It’s a hobby for me. It’s a passion project for me. I tell people it’s the best part of my job. And I recommend it to anyone who has time to do it. Step into a podcast. It’s a great learning experience.

24:24 – Becca Hoeft
And Kevin, if any of our listeners want to check you out, where can they find you?

24:31 – Kevin Edwards
You can find us at real-leaders.com. That’s real-leaders.com. You can check out the podcast. Just go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, any of those places, and just type in Real Leaders Podcast. And it’s the red logo. It says Real Leaders on it, with Kevin Edwards.

24:47 – Becca Hoeft
Awesome, thank you. So, before we go, we always ask every one of our guests the same question. And I think, while we didn’t talk about banking or finance necessarily in this episode, we talked about building a movement. We talked about using business as a force for good.

25:05 – Becca Hoeft
We talked about how Edelman is finding research that requires– that states that doing good is a requirement. And so, when we look at and when we consider the future of banking, I’d love to just pick your brain for this last question. What do you think that next gen banker looks like?

25:31 – Kevin Edwards
Whew, I saw that question, and I was just like, I don’t know if I’m in the position to speak on it. So, I’d be curious, actually, to know what you guys think. But if I had to say something, I think banking is really the headwinds, right? It’s really what makes this economy work. You inject money into the economy, and then you pull it out. And interest rates have a big impact on that.

25:53 – Kevin Edwards
And so, I was listening to one of your podcasts earlier. And your podcast really opened my eyes to how all these bankers in the community think. And so, if I had this say an answer, I’d probably take it from one of the interviews that I heard, in that I think the next gen banker’s going to be really individualized.

26:12 – Kevin Edwards
It’s going to be someone who represents the community. It’s going to be someone that understands the community. Is going to be someone that has experience. It’s going to be someone who represents the IMPACT principles, and those core values, and to make sure that those who have been historically misrepresented in the world, can now have the tools to build generational wealth.

26:39 – Kevin Edwards
And that’s going to take a big shift. And so, I think the next gen banker is going to be exactly what you both are doing. And that’s education. Education, we’re not taught this in school. It needs to be taught school. You’re not taught this in college, and when you get out of college, you’re not taught it after, of course.

26:56 – Kevin Edwards
So, I think the next gen banker, I think you guys have a big role to play in this entire movement. And I’m really looking forward to hearing more episodes from you guys and getting to learn about what you all think a next gen banker looks like. So, I really do appreciate you guys having me on the show. And yeah, just, again, it’s an exciting time to be alive. Let’s just say that.

27:17 – Becca Hoeft
It really is. And Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re honored to be chosen for the Real Leaders Top Impact Company list and thrilled that every day, you continue to shine a light on those that are doing good, and equally thrilled that you are on this episode today. Thank you so much.

27:37 – Kevin Edwards
No, of course. Yeah, Bryan, Becca, I appreciate you guys. Happy to be here and looking forward to staying connected.

27:44 – Bryan Toft
Thanks, Kevin.

27:44 – [MUSIC PLAYING]

27:47 – Becca Hoeft
For this episode’s musical feature, we’re showcasing The Choir. The Choir is a Nashville-based, Grammy-nominated alternative rock band, whose music has been described by the Los Angeles Times as magical songs that combine strains of murky psychedelia with pure pop. Here is, “After All”, featuring Leigh Nash, of Sixpence None the Richer.

28:09 – [MUSIC – THE CHOIR, “AFTER ALL”]

29:09 – Becca Hoeft
That was “After All,” by The Choir, featuring Leigh Nash. You can find The Choir’s music on Spotify, Apple Music, and most other streaming platforms. If you would like your music featured on the NextGen Banker Podcast, email David@nextgen-banker.com with a link to your music and website. Thanks for listening to the NextGen Banker Podcast. We’ll see you next time.